【しのの旅 #03】音がない一瞬の映像で共感を作る


Create empathy with a momentary silent video.


Guest, Personality

アニメーター 東京造形大学のアニメーション学科を卒業後、東映アニメーションにてアニメーターとして活躍。直近のワークスは「デジモンゴーストゲーム」デジモンキャラクターデザイン、 ずっと真夜中でいいのに。「胸の煙」のMV制作を担当。
Guest: Shino
Animator After graduating from the Animation Department of Tokyo Zokei University, I have been active as an animator at Toei Animation. My recent works include character design for "Digimon Ghost Game" and the production of the music video for "Mune no Kemuri" by Zutto Mayonaka de Iinoni.
Personality: Yuuki Sakoda
After working for a telecommunications company and a comprehensive advertising agency, he started an anime planning and production company and produces music videos and films. In 2021, he moved to Kyoto and started working on promoting the entertainment industry in Kyoto. He is currently also working in the entertainment field of manga and audio. He is planning and producing audio dramas and webtoons. In addition, he serves as a producer and advisor for multiple entertainment companies.


・フリクリの幻影を追いかける日々 ・フリクリの自由さ ・守るべき型を守り、破るときは破る ・クリスマス映画がいい感じで終わる ・変わらない日常に現れたアニメや映画 ・大学に入るきっかけと結局静かな場所 ・埋め立て地の千葉にてしのさんが思った事 ・空を知らない鳥の話 ・諸星大二郎の「鳥を売る人」
・ものの見方を変えられたきっかけの諸星大二郎 ・だだっ広い土地へのあこがれと怖さ ・大学時代のチャレンジや思い出 ・在学時代の作画オタクの仲間 ・意図や意味を言葉にして伝えることの大事さを知る ・物語とMV ・表現と物語性 ・心の動きと体の動き ・最高潮の瞬間に自由と力を与えたい ・メリハリと耐えムーブ
・怪獣ものはボーイミーツガールだと思っている ・水はどのように流れたいのだろう ・何となく書くということができない ・得意なもの好きなものをやり続ける大事さ ・作ったキャラに恋して欲しいから布教活動する ・グローバルに向けるとフェチも大多数になる ・音無しでも見れるジョージ・ミラー作品 ・音がない一瞬の映像で共感を作る



I think monster movies are about "Boy Meets Girl."

In the previous episode, we talked about not only well-made works, but also about creating works that are close to the characters and the emotional movements of the character, the importance of Shino-san as a character, expressing those emotional movements through physical movements, and how characters overcome their circumstances to achieve something great. We discussed the way of expressing and giving power to such things.

Yes, I see. Well, I was really enjoying the interesting story, and actually, I've been listening while imagining Dainiro Moroboshi, who appeared in the first episode, in my head. I was thinking, "Who is Dainiro Moroboshi to Shino-san?" and things like that. Of course, I understand that Shino-san and I have different perspectives on Moroboshi's works. It's like the meeting point of two completely different worlds or ways of thinking that may not naturally fit together. It's like a crack or a reaction or a state of confusion that occurs in such a place, and it seems like Moroboshi has a lot of materials like that.
So within that, there are things like "Oh, what if a bird that doesn't know how to fly learns about the sky?" or "What if people living underground who don't know about the existence of birds learn about them?" It's about encountering the boundary line between different worlds. Even in my own experiences, I've always been more interested in the phenomenon that occurs between two things rather than simply focusing on one thing. I search for that space. It's like stories are born there. I was listening while thinking that maybe Shino-san also has that sense.

Ah, I see. That could really be the case. I actually have read some of Osamu Dazai's works, but I'm not that familiar with them. I've only read the ones that caught my interest, so I'm not that well-versed in it. But what should I say... works like "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" or monster movies, they're basically metaphors for something foreign in this world, like something dangerous or an outcast or an obstacle or a disaster, right? It's about those moments when you encounter something like that. And I mistakenly associate it with "Boy Meets Girl," you know what I mean?

That's it, right? "King Kong"...
そういうことっす。だから、世の中の怪獣モノは叶わない出会いモノだと思ってるというか。で、本田さんの作品はそれが行き過ぎて心中ものになってると思ってるんですけど。一緒に死んであげる人がいないと収まらない話になっちゃってるんで。『ガス人間第一号』とか。まさにそういう感じなんですけど、自分はそういうところにむしろ惹かれるというか、要はこの2人は絶対あり得ないよなとか。例えば鳥に対して恋できる人はなかなかいないじゃないですか。まあ可愛いと思う人一杯いると思いますけど、自分はちょっと相容れない存在とか現象とかそういうのに対して、多分フェティッシュがおかしいんだと思うんですけど、なんか愛のほうをちょっと感じてると言うか、 なんか自分にとっての可愛いは多分、普通の美少女が可愛いとか、そういうのとちょっと違うんですよ、愛せてるか否かなんですよね。で、結構愛せる範囲が普通の人と違うみたいで。だから、アニメ中でおかしなことが起きても、それをなんか割と愛して撮ってるみたいなところがあるかもしれないっすね。そうを聴くと全部ボーイミーツガールなんですよ。
That's what I mean. So, I think that monster stories in the world are stories of encounters that cannot be fulfilled. And I think that Honda's works have taken it to the extreme and become stories of double suicides. Like "The First Gas Human". That's exactly the feeling I get, but rather than being repulsed by it, I'm actually drawn to it. In other words, these two people are absolutely impossible, you know? For example, there aren't many people who can fall in love with birds. Well, I think there are plenty of people who find them cute, but for me, it's a bit incompatible with my existence or phenomenon. I think maybe my fetish is strange, but I feel a little bit of love towards it. My idea of cute is probably different from just finding normal pretty girls cute, it's about whether I can love them or not. And it seems like the extent to which I can love is different from ordinary people. So, even if strange things happen in anime, there might be a part of me that loves capturing those moments. It's like listening to all those "boy meets girl" stories.

その感覚を持ちつつ、今、アニメーターとして、キャラクターとシチュエーションが一番みたいな話もあったと思うんですけど、なんかそういう亀裂とか瞬間みたいなものに接した時にキャラクターがどう動くかみたいなことや「こう動かしたい」みたいな、なんかそういう感覚なのかな? While having that feeling, now, as an animator, I think there are stories where characters and situations are the most important. When encountering cracks or moments like that, I wonder how the characters move or think, like "I want them to move like this." It's a kind of sensation, I guess?
It's really like that, isn't it? Maybe I'm not interested in the story itself, but rather in capturing those moments. That's something I've been feeling lately. It's not about long-lasting emotional changes, but rather about those moments of hesitation, whether something is good or bad, or even when things are in flux. I want to grasp something within relatively short periods of time, like flying. There's this fetish of wanting to capture something within that short sense of time, and that's why I make anime. So maybe that's why I choose anime.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about foreign countries, but in places like North America, there's this idea that animators are like actors, you know? And listening to the current discussion, it seems like you have a strong desire to bring Shinohara-san's character to life, which feels very actor-like or closer to that kind of sensibility.

Well, when it comes to Japanese animators, there is quite a bit of specialization going on, you know? For example, there are people who are really good at effects and only do effects, and there are people who only focus on character acting. Action is definitely a big part of it, but for action to stand out, it needs to pursue the beauty of body movements in that moment and the satisfaction of timing. Japanese animators seem to place quite a bit of emphasis on these technical aspects, so maybe there are quite a few animators who are like that. Personally, I don't have much of a desire to specialize in that area.
I'm more interested in thinking about "what is this person feeling?" For example, when water flows, I wonder how this water wants to flow, or when the wind blows, what kind of wind is it? It's more about that kind of feeling. So it's more like being an actor, even for just blowing a breeze, I think, "What kind of feeling does this wind want to convey?" Is it to caress the protagonist or to make them suffer? I wonder which it is.

I think autonomy is generally a good thing, but in the commercial field, there is often a certain direction in terms of production. Can you please explain how things work in that regard?

だからもちろん演出さんと話して、これこれこういう理由でこういう感じって言われたら、「なるほどね」って思って描けるんですけど、それが不鮮明だったり不明瞭だったりすると、「えっ、何、分かんない」みたいな感じになって書けないみたいな、そういうのは結構あるんですよね。まあどちらかというと、完全に演出方面の脳みそしてるんだろうなと思いつつ、いまだにアニメーターやってます。 Yes, that's right. So, it's not impossible for me to fully immerse myself in being a background character, of course. If I receive a proper explanation and can understand it, I can pretty much do it as instructed. However, as I mentioned earlier, I can't really draw things that I don't understand the thought process behind or things that I can't agree with, or things whose structure I can't comprehend.
So, of course, if I talk to the director and they tell me, "This is the reason why we want it to be like this," I can think, "Ah, I see," and draw it that way. But if it's unclear or vague, I end up not being able to write because I'm like, "Huh, what, I don't get it," and things like that. Well, more often than not, I feel like I'm completely focused on the directorial aspects while still working as an animator.
When writing a storyboard, do you include the intentions, meanings, or purposes of the scenes or cuts in the storyboard?

あー、そうですね。結構入れますね。注釈というか、「ここは何々のオマージュです」とか「どこどこのシーンのこの感じが欲しい」みたいな。結構、映画ばっかりなんですけど、映画かもしくはアニメーター単体の名前で結構指定することがあるんですけど、そういう感じの但し書きみたいなの多くて非常に申し訳ないなと思ってますね、いちいち調べさせるのかよ、みたいな。 Ah, I see. That's quite a lot. It's more like footnotes or something like "This is an homage to so-and-so" or "I want the feeling of a certain scene from this place." It's mostly about movies, but sometimes I specify with either the name of a movie or an individual animator. I apologize for having so many disclaimers like that, it must be a hassle to look them up every time.
This is just my opinion, but I think it's important to have a clear structure and intention when creating something. When there is a clear intention and someone like a director or leader who carries that intention strongly, it brings coherence to the project and gives me a sense of security that the project is progressing safely. So, I believe it is necessary to have such intention in order to create various works, from short ones to long ones.
Well, I think it's okay to have people like that around, you know.
確かにそういう役割分担はありえますよね。 Certainly, such division of roles is possible, isn't it?

As a kind of auxiliary line or, for example, on the set of a play, there is often a type of playwright who strongly wants to control something, like a professional actor who can perform the role exactly as they envision it. Well, the image of traditional theater is quite strong in that regard.
On the other hand, there is also a way of creating a play by performing together with the actors who are building the scene in the rehearsal room, while discerning the interesting aspects of the scene. It's like selecting and discarding each study or episode, a kind of approach like that. I've only seen it in documentaries or something, but it's somewhat similar to creating and discarding storyboards, like what they do in Disney or Pixar.
So, in Japan, there seems to be a tendency to try to construct a narrative, a kind of construction-oriented playwright style. From Shino-san's perspective, it seems that if there were terms for creating such studies and making selections, it could lead to very interesting things. However, in everyday work, there may be many things that cannot be done to that extent, and although it's a short obi, the sash is long, there may be some mismatched aspects, I imagine.

Hmm, I see. What should I say? Is it like a spinning of motivation? Maybe there's a bit of a feeling like "I don't expect that much from you." I'm not sure though.

As the user's text is in Japanese, I will translate it into English.
It seems like there's a conversation about doing things as instructed or delegating tasks. Well, I'm not really sure about that.
Well, when it comes to doing character design, there are definitely elements of my own ideas that make it interesting.

Thank you very much. We are getting excited, but for now, I would like to play a song here.

This work is a mess in terms of the story, but the flow of emotions and the way the movie starts, along with the fact that I am from Chiba Prefecture, all combined to make me absolutely hooked on a movie called "Youthful Murderer." It's one of the two films made by a director who has only made two films so far. I think I'll play a little bit of the song by Godiego, which became the theme song for that movie.
The song is called "I'll Entrust My Memories to You." Thank you in advance.


Creating empathy in a momentary video without sound
The statement from Shino-san, "I consider monsters as Boy Meets Girl," seems to be quite condensed, so it seems necessary to provide context. It was interesting how Shino-san's portrayal and character design align with the concept of "love" and how Shino-san's perspective on the scope of love might be slightly different.
Personally, I quite enjoyed the discussion of the metaphor of the "outcast" or the "metaphor of obstacles/disasters" in relation to the monsters. I hope to explore this further somewhere in the future. Also, when writing the script or creating the original artwork, there was a discussion about how Shino-san finds it challenging to work with things that are not understood or structures that are not comprehensible. This led to a conversation about theater and etudes initiated by Harada-san, and from there, it was interpreted that adopting a more agile approach, where various things are done on the spot, instead of a waterfall-like approach, might be interesting.
So, in summary, it was mentioned that Shino-san wants to express the movements of the heart during this short period through physical movements in the film. I think each creator is conscious of how they present themselves and many are interested in their behavior on social media. Therefore, I would like to ask how Shino-san perceives their own branding and if there are any concerns or actions related to it.

まあ、自分、あのあんまり友人が 多くないんで、作る時も一人になりがちなんで、こういう自分の考えを話す場と言うんですかね?あんまりそういう機会がないもんで。作ったりとかももちろんして。それももちろんブランディングの一つだなみたいな感じがするんですけど、基本的にさっきも言った通り、自分は例えば好みが結構偏ってる、偏ってるっていうか王道じゃなければ何でもよしみたいな感じになっちゃってるんですけど。なんか自分の好みに正直に、大体ニッチが存在するというか、あのここ五年ぐらいモンスターとか人じゃないもの書きまくりなんですよ。なんかそっちがもちろん得意だし好きなんですけど、本当にここまで人じゃないものばっかり書く羽目になると思わなかったってぐらいで、やっぱり得意ものとか好きなものをこういうの好きです、得意ですって言って、やり続けるのって割と大事なんだなとか。 だから今後も多分その方向はブレないんだろうなあっていう風には思いますね。割とフェティッシュに正直にずっと作ってるんで。
Well, I don't have many friends, so when I create things, I often end up doing it alone. Is this like a place for me to share my thoughts? I don't have many opportunities like that. Of course, I also do things like branding. It feels like that is also a part of it. But basically, as I mentioned earlier, my preferences are quite biased, or rather, I'm okay with anything as long as it's not mainstream. I tend to be honest with my preferences, and there are generally niche interests, you know? For the past five years or so, I've been writing about monsters and things that are not human. I definitely enjoy that and it's something I'm good at. I never thought I would end up writing only about things that are not human. It made me realize that it's important to continue doing what you're good at and what you love. So, I think I probably won't deviate from that direction in the future. I've been faithfully creating things in a somewhat fetishistic manner.

フェティッシュを正直に公言して、どんどんそのフェティッシュに即したものをアウトプットしていけば、自ずと自己のブランディングや自分が好きな仕事があの来るであろうということですね。 To honestly declare your fetish and continuously produce output that aligns with that fetish, it will naturally lead to the development of your personal branding and the emergence of work that you love.
なんか、結局世の中いろんな人がいますけど、好みももちろん千差万別で。もちろん、自分が書いたものが好きな人とか、こういうジャンルが好きな人も多分いっぱいいるんで、まあ、まずはそういう人に届けるところからなのかなっていう気もしなくもない、やっぱ得意分野で勝負できなかったら、 あとになにが残るんだろうっていう。なんかアイデア一発勝負みたいなのもそんなに得意じゃないんで。もちろん、例えばツイッターでバズるとかみんなに共感してもらえるようなものを作るっていうのは、確かにその一瞬の共感は得てもらいやすいのかもしれないですけど、言い方があれかもしれないですけど、俺の作ったキャラクターに恋して欲しいわけですよ。俺がその子に恋してるのがあるから、その感じを知ってほしいわけですよ。そのためには、フェティッシュに正直になるしかないですよね。だから、地道なその子の布教活動と思って、ネット上活動してるって言うか、ちょっとそういう節があるかもしれないです。
Well, in the end, there are all sorts of people in the world, each with their own preferences. Of course, there are probably plenty of people who like what I write or who enjoy this genre, so maybe it's important to start by reaching out to those people. I can't help but wonder what will be left if I can't succeed in my area of expertise. I'm not particularly skilled at coming up with one-hit-wonder ideas. Of course, creating something that becomes a buzz on Twitter or that everyone can relate to might easily garner that momentary sense of connection, but to put it a certain way, I want people to fall in love with the characters I create. I want them to understand the feeling I have for those characters. In order to do that, I have no choice but to be honest about my fetishes. So, I think of it as diligently spreading the word about those characters, engaging in online activities, or at least having a certain aspect of that.

ちょっと面白い言い回しをいただいたなと思って。まあ、要はそうですね、本当にフェティッシュに根付いたキャラクターだったり、何かしらシチュエーションだったりを、それを本当に自分が 愛して布教をするんだっていう思いでやっていけば、本当にその愛が刺さる人には刺さるし。まあ、頑なにやっていけっていうところもありますよね。
I thought I received an interesting way of expression. Well, in short, if you really have a character or a situation that is deeply rooted in your fetish, and you spread the love with the intention of truly loving it, it will resonate with those who truly understand that love. Well, there are also places where you stubbornly persist, right?

Oh, I see. That's a bit geeky, isn't it?

I think there are various types of media, but I believe that Twitter, being a global social networking service, could be an effective tactic. As a prerequisite, aiming globally would increase the user base, so no matter how much it caters to fetishes or niches, the user base would still be large.
Also, for example, whether it's animals or robots or anything else, in Japan, there may not be many people who are really interested in them. But in countries like America, for example, in children's shows, they often anthropomorphize everything into animals, and there are quite a lot of them. Even Digimon seemed to be more popular overseas than in Japan. Well, it doesn't have to be popular only among Japanese people, I guess. So even without the word "animation," or even without the word "visual," you can still create visuals, you know. So I thought it might be possible to compete with just characters and movements, without words, and I kind of have that idea. After all, Tom and Jerry don't have any dialogue.

I agree. I felt that even when something like the metaverse emerged, it was necessary to reconsider being nonverbal. With the advent of AI, things like language translation may become easier and language barriers may be removed, but I still think that more primitive and primitive nonverbal communication can convey more. In terms of global branding, I think that visuals are still the most easily understood in all media in this world.
そうなんですよね。例えばインド映画がなんでダンスとかそういうのでやるのかっていうと、言語圏が広くて通じないところとかでも分かるようにそうしてるわけだし。例えば自分は尊敬してるジョージミラー監督の『マッドマックス 怒りのデスロード』とかって、あれ音なしで見てもわかるように画面作ってるんですよ。わざわざ見せる必要のない地図をわざわざマックスが自分の血で書いて見せたりとか、あのー、要は何て言うんですかね、音がない状態でも、ある程度伝わるように多分映像って組めるんですよ。でアニメは特にそれがやりやすいと思うんですよ。だって画面上全部意図したものしか存在しないのがアニメなんで。「こういう意味だよ」っていうのを全部画面に落とし込めんで、偶然性が存在しないようにできる。そういうのも相まって自分はアニメを選んでるところももちろんあるんですよ。要はその時の感覚って人類どこも一緒でしょうみたいな。この気持ちは多分分かる人には分かるはずだっていう。 Yeah, that's right. For example, when it comes to why Indian movies incorporate dance and such, it's because they want to make it understandable even in areas where the language might not be familiar. Like, for instance, the director George Miller, whom I admire, created the film "Mad Max: Fury Road" in a way that you can understand even without sound. He intentionally showed Max drawing a map with his own blood, even though it wasn't necessary to explicitly present it. In other words, even without sound, you can convey a certain level of understanding through visual storytelling. And I think anime is particularly good at that. Because in anime, only what is intended to be on the screen exists. You can eliminate chance occurrences and ensure that everything is deliberate. That, combined with other factors, is why I personally choose anime. Ultimately, I believe that this feeling is something that anyone who understands it can relate to.
そう思います。SNS時代におけるブランディングの話に戻ると、我田引水みたいになるかもしれないですけど、映像という表現方法はグローバルSNSにおいて、何かしら自分を発露する時には多分最強のコミュニケーション手段だと思います。あと、つながるなと思ったのが、しのさんはやっぱり短い時間感覚において心の動きの表現みたいなものをしたいって言ったところですが、これ奇しくもいまの時代には合ってる気はちょっとするんですよね。ツイッターでは音も流れないし、ユーザーは一瞬しか見ない。その音が流れない一瞬の瞬間において人の心を掴むっていうか、共感を醸成するっていうところには、本当にアニメという映像表現はめちゃくちゃ適してるかも、ヒントがなんかあるかもしれないと思いました。 I agree. Returning to the discussion of branding in the age of social media, it may seem self-centered, but I believe that visual expression is probably the most powerful means of communication when it comes to revealing oneself on global social media platforms. Also, what struck me is when Shino-san mentioned wanting to express the movements of the heart in a short time frame. It seems oddly fitting for the current era. On Twitter, there is no sound and users only glance at content for a moment. In that fleeting moment without sound, capturing people's hearts and cultivating empathy, I think anime as a visual expression may be extremely suitable. It might provide some hints.
Well, that's right. I haven't been committing to the internet at all, so I've kind of left it alone for a bit.
I thought so again. Twitter doesn't make any sound or talk, right? TikTok and those kinds of platforms, on the other hand, are more about making sounds, talking, and moving.
そうなんですよね。あっちはちゃんとオチがつけれるし、その短い時間間隔の小気味良さみたいなのをめちゃくちゃ注視してるじゃないですか。ちょっとした動画とかでもすごい編集をコマ単位で、ここ本当に2コマ3コマ多かったらちょっと軽くなっちゃうところをビシッと切ってやるとか。結構そっちのスペシャリストが多いですよね。なんかCMとかみたいに短い尺でこれを伝えないといけないってなった時に、あっちの人の才能って本当にすごいんだろうなって思いますよね。 Yes, that's right. They can give it a proper ending, and they really focus on the excitement of those short intervals. Even in small videos, they do amazing editing, cutting it precisely to make it feel light even if there are a few extra frames. There are quite a few specialists in that area, aren't there? When it comes to conveying something in a short time like in commercials, I really think their talent is incredible.
そうっすね、本当に一フレームごとにこだわりを投影しますからね。いろいろ聞けてきた中で、しのさんのこだわりのものみたいなものを投影した結果、結構それってSNSプランニングにおいても役立つやり方なのではっていうところが繋がった気がしてます。あとそうですね、こんごのビジョンみたいなものもお聞きできればと思いつつ、まあなんかどうですか?なんか、今後こういうことしたいなーみたいなものってありますか?漠然とでも。 Yeah, that's right. We really focus on projecting our obsession with each frame. Among the various things I've heard, I feel like it connects to the idea of your obsession and projection, which could be a useful approach even in SNS planning. Also, if it's possible, I would like to hear about your future vision or something like that. Well, how about it? Do you have any vague thoughts about things you would like to do in the future?
今後ですか?とりあえず商業で絵コンテ一本ぐらいとりたいっすね、まあ手近な目標ですけど。まあ原画とかは本気になればある程度の画面は作れるように下手くそなりにようになったんで、そろそろ普通に台詞ありでも作ってみたいなっていうのはありますよね。もちろん例えば監督とかオリジナルのキャラクターデザインとか、そっち方面の仕事は全然やりたいんですけど、自分はそんなに役職とかあんまりそういうのにはこだわってなくて。なるだけ自分が責任を持って触れられる範囲が広ければ、まあそれでいいやって言うタイプなんで。まあ、ぼちぼち触れる範囲を増やしていこうかなみたいな感じでいます。 In the future, huh? For now, I'd like to take on at least one storyboard in the commercial industry. It's a reachable goal, I suppose. Well, if I get serious, I can create a decent amount of frames for things like original artwork, so I'm starting to feel like trying to make something with dialogue would be nice. Of course, I definitely want to do work in the direction of being a director or creating original character designs, but I'm not really fixated on having those kinds of positions. As long as I can have a wide range of responsibilities that I can handle, well, that's good enough for me. Well, I guess I'll gradually expand the range of things I can handle.